Interview with John Sherman Cooper, May 15, 1982

Interview with John Sherman Cooper, May 15, 1982 John Sherman Cooper Oral History Project Principal Interviewer:Bill Cooper

The University of Kentucky Division of Special Collections and Archives Oral History Program, University of Kentucky Libraries

Oral History Program, University of Kentucky, Margaret I. King Library, Lexington, KY 40506

The transcripts included in this project have been dirived from the original interview source tapes. Introduction

following in an unrehearsed interview, the fourteenth in a series, with former Senator and Ambassador John Sherman Cooper. The interview was conducted by Bill Cooper for the University of Kentucky [Library's John Sherman Cooper] Oral History [Project] at Senator Cooper's home, 2900 N Street [N.W.], Washington, D.C. on May 15, 1982 at 3:00 p.m..

Interview

John Sherman Cooper, 82OH70, Coop44, 2h 30m

[An Interview with John Sherman Cooper]

BILL COOPER: Senator Cooper, there's one thing I wanted to ask you about 1960 before we leave that year. It was speculated in 1960 that Thruston Morton, your fellow Republican senator from Kentucky, was going to be chosen by Richard Nixon as his vice presidential running mate. What . . . do you have some recollections of that and those rumors? COOPER: Yes, I . . . I have quite a bit of information about it. There were rumors that he might be chosen as the Republican nominee for vice president, but . . . he was one of several, but he was very prominent, his name. He had served, as you know, as chairman of the Republican National Committee, and in that position he had spoken throughout the country, had made many friends being a very attractive man, also very good and amusing speaker. He used to tell a good many of my own stories [chuckle] but make them better. [laughter] And he was well liked. And not only was there rumors that he should . . . that he would be named, but many Republicans thought he'd make the best candidate. At the convention I was chairman of our delegation, and up until the time Richard Nixon had been nominated for president, there had been no decision [and] nobody knew who was to be nominated by Nixon, I guess, I . . . except the person who was, and Thruston came to me and I was a little bit surprised because he never did discuss with me very much his own political ambitions other than those which concerned the Senate or Kentucky. He asked me if . . . if I would see what I could find out. Nixon had announced that on the evening following his own nomination, which was assured, that he would have a meeting in which there would be a discussion of possible nominees for vice president, and Thruston asked me to represent him at that meeting. Before that, I had talked to Senator John Bricker of Ohio, who himself had been a candidate for vice president, you may . . . may recall, and although like all politicians he had his friends and he had those who didn't like him so much, he was from Ohio. He had been governor there. He was, I think, generally well liked, and I thought I'd talk to him. To my great surprise he told me, "I'm for [Henry] Cabot Lodge." You asked me why, because during . . . when we served together in the Senate, we did . . . Cabot Lodge was there for, I think, at least four years when Bricker was there, or more than that. No. And I was only there two years when . . . but Bricker did not like Lodge, it was evident. They . . . they were on such different sides; Lodge being a strong supporter of . . . of [Nelson] Rockefeller in those days and . . . and . . . and [Thomas] Dewey, and [they had] different positions on international matters [and] national matters. Lodge, I wouldn't call him a great liberal, but he was a moderate, while John Bricker--we're friends so I know he doesn't mind [chuckling] me saying this-- is a very . . . is an absolute well-known conservative. And so I . . . really, I . . . I was very much stricken by the idea that he was for Lodge. I told him I was for Morton and he said, "Well, I like Thruston all right, but I have watched Lodge as . . . at . . . at the U.N. [United Nations]." Nixon had . . . or Rockefeller . . . I mean [Dwight D.] Eisenhower had appointed Lodge as the chief representative at the U.N., and it attracted more interest in those days. And he said . . . Bricker said, "As I travel around Ohio I hear the women talking about Lodge, and they see him on television, and others, and they all like him." And I don't know whether that was his reason or not but, anyway, he gave me that as his reason. Well, that gave me the idea that if . . . if . . . if Bricker was for Lodge, that . . . that there are others with the same political stand that's probably for him, but I . . . I didn't know. I went to the meeting the night that Nixon asked us to and there was quite a large group. I remember the . . . the governor from Illinois, who . . . who was there supporting himself. He later got into some trouble. I can't remember his name. He was . . . he's cleared of . . . of . . . of being in trouble, but [chuckle] . . . but . . . and, oh, several others. But it did not last long. I spoke for Morton, and Morton had support, and Richard Nixon answered by saying that he had great respect for Thruston Morton and affection for him and had served with him in the House and they were close friends and he would make a fine vice president. But then he went ahead and he said after the usual thought and all [chuckling] that, "I have made my decision and," he said, "I have decided to name or at least submit . . . submit to the convention the name of Henry Cabot Lodge." That ended it. BILL COOPER: So, it wasn't really a very long meeting. COOPER: No, and very . . . very little argument. Very little discussion. BILL COOPER: You . . . you got the impression that the . . . COOPER: It was set. BILL COOPER: . . . decision had really already been made before the . . . COOPER: It was set. BILL COOPER: . . . meeting. Umhmm. COOPER: I think . . . well, I think one of the reasons that caused him to select Lodge, because they weren't very much alike, and . . . was that Lodge had been, probably, the first prominent person who had urged Eisenhower to be a candidate. And I believe that Eisenhower . . . President Eisenhower--this is just my belief, speculation--himself wanted Lodge to be the nominee. BILL COOPER: Of course, Morton had been very early for Eisenhower also, had he not? COOPER: Yeah, but he didn't have the influence when he was for him. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: Nineteen hundred and fifty-two, Thruston had just resigned . . . not resigned, but retired from the House, you know? BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: He'd been there six years, and he himself was a candidate . . . no, he wasn't a candidate at all. He was managing my candidate [sic candidacy] for the United States Senate, and he had decided to retire from politics. And that's another story, but we . . . we . . . we worked around so he did retire. He was for Eisenhower and in the . . . in the convention in Kentucky--I wasn't in the convention as I was a candidate . . . or I think I was abroad, too. Let's see what year that was. No, I wasn't abroad. And Thruston stood up for Eisenhower and he was the only del-. . . he was the only Eisenhower delegate. All the rest were for [Robert] Taft. And . . . but Lodge had gone to France when President Eisenhower was the head of N.A.T.O. [North Atlantic Treaty Organization] and had urged him to be a candidate and kept on urging him and urging him, urging even when he became president of Columbia University. And he himself, although he probably would have been defeated by [John] Kennedy anyway, he just . . . he just gave up . . . while he was a candidate he didn't devote any of his time at all hardly to his own race, he devoted all of his time to President Eisenhower's race. Curious enough, while it wouldn't have made no difference to Eisenhower but, of course, it was the first time I ever met him, but when I was in Paris and I went out to his headquarters--he was then at Versailles . . . near Versailles where N.A.T.O. had its headquarters, I called and asked him if I could come out to see him--I was then a delegate to the U.N.--and he told me to come out and . . . and I told him I hoped he'd be a candidate. But, of course, that didn't mean anything. I wasn't . . . I held no position. But he was very nice. He just said, "The . . . oh, he had . . . these things had to be considered," or something like that. But Thruston did put up a fight for him and had . . . as I said, he must have had some influence because of . . . of the fact that he had been . . . I mean put . . . put . . . he'd been in the Congress and also the fact he showed . . . I think that Eisenhower liked him very much because he served over there in the White House, you know. He didn't serve in the White House, but he was liaison . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah, assistant . . . COOPER: . . . between . . . BILL COOPER: . . . secretary . . . COOPER: . . . between . . . BILL COOPER: . . . of state. COOPER: . . . between secretary of state and that . . . that took him to the White House a lot. Sherman Adams liked him very much and, of course, Sherman Adams had good influence on . . . a good rapport with Eisenhower until he had that unfortunate . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: . . . but . . . so you asked me, and now that may be a convoluted way I figured it out. But I kind of believe that Eisenhower wanted Lodge to be the can-. . . the nominee. BILL COOPER: Now, looking back on it, do you think Morton would have been a stronger candidate . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . than Lodge was? COOPER: Yes, for these reasons. I don't think he was any abler than Lodge, and I've served with both of them. In fact, I think Lodge, as a steady worker, was probably superior. Also, Lodge had had quite a bit of experience in foreign affairs. He served on the Foreign Relations Committee and took great interest in it, traveled a lot, and he was a good candidate that way. But there's always been or . . . yes, I think there still is. There's a kind of a rift between the far East . . . Northeast, particularly, of the United States and the West. And even . . . and that's . . . and somehow the eastern candidates haven't . . . haven't done too well. When you think that during the Depression all Republican candidates and the great Republican states of the Middle West--Indiana, Illinois, Kansas, Iowa--all of them getting defeated, and yet Governor Dewey was getting elected, and after him Governor Rockefeller getting elected, and yet the delegates from the rest of the country, Republicans, turn them down every time they want to be president. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. Umhmm. COOPER: I think it was very nip and tuck then. [If] Thruston could've got it, I think Nixon would have won it. BILL COOPER: Do you think he would have strengthened the ticket enough to have . . . COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . made the difference? COOPER: Yeah, he liked . . . he was liked and, also, he would have worked like everything, and I think he could . . . I think he could've . . . BILL COOPER: Wasn't that one of the . . . the chief criticisms of Lodge during the campaign is that he really didn't campaign hard enough? COOPER: Yes. Now, I don't know whether that's true or not. It was the criticism though. It . . . it was made afterwards more than it was [chuckling] during the campaign, of course. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: I remember that when Nixon and Lodge came to Cincinnati, well, I went over [and] I got Lodge to come over in Kentucky . . . Lexi-. . . to Newport and to . . . and to Covington, and we had . . . we had . . . he spoke over there. We had a big crowd and he seemed to enjoy it. But I went over and got him and got him in advance, and he promised to come [and] he did come. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: But . . . BILL COOPER: Did . . . did Morton ever talk with you about this later? Was he . . . was he bitter at all that . . . that he wasn't selected? COOPER: No, he never talked to me about it afterwards except to thank me. I told him, of course, what had happened, and I'm sure other people did, too, because I really did do what I could, but there wasn't [chuckling] much you could do. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: I . . . if . . . if the nominee for president was going to make the choice, . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . I don't think . . . BILL COOPER: And he'd already made it. COOPER: . . . you're not going to convince him [chuckle-- Bill Cooper] in a meeting like that . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . that meeting was just like . . . was just a facade, you know. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Umhmm. COOPER: And [chuckling] everybody's name, he spoke well of them, said they'd make fine candidates but, of course, you know, he hadn't waited to that last minute . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . to make a choice. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Sure. COOPER: And curious enough, after I talked to Bricker as I've told you, I . . . while it didn't change my efforts for Morton, I had my doubts that he was going to he named. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. Well, now, moving into 1961 . . . COOPER: Now, after that, Morton's chief interest was 1962, and what was thought to be . . . believed it would be a very tough candi-. . . campaign because Wilson Wyatt was considered to be . . . would be the candidate, you know . . . BILL COOPER: Oh, yeah. COOPER: . . . on the Democrat side. BILL COOPER: Well now, last time we . . . we discussed your re-election in 1960. Now, starting in . . . in 1961 and your . . . I guess would be your first full six-year term that you're starting. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: The . . . the very first bill introduced into the Senate in January of 1961 was a Depressed Areas bill, which you co-sponsored along with Senator Paul Douglas . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . from Illinois. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: First of all, before we get into that, what . . . what did you think of Douglas? What was your relationship with him? COOPER: It was not a personal relationship in the sense that we would meet and talk on . . . socially, you know, and have meals together, that kind of thing, but it was a relationship of substance because we generally voted alike. We had somewhat the same views. He himself was considered to be one of the great Democratic liberals, yet he . . . on some issues . . . today, for example, he'd be questioned. He was tremendously strong always for defense. He had gone back into World War II in his fifties and . . . as a Marine. He'd been wounded, and he was tremendously strong always for defense. So in that way, while I agreed with him on that, some of the . . . of his more liberal cohorts did not agree with him. But on civil rights, civil liberties, Joe McCarthy [laughing]--I remember those days and before, when I'd been there before--and all matters dealing with, I would call, the more human aspects of legislation [such as] education [and the] poor, we were . . . we were practically always together. BILL COOPER: I read one time that someone asked Douglas who was the . . . who was the best senator, and that he pointed to you and said, "There's the noblest Roman." Is that true? Did that happen? COOPER: Well, it's appeared in a lot of publications . . . BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: . . . and . . . at that time it appeared at . . . at times. I think it first came out in the New York Times, some reporter asked him who was the . . . if you . . . well, you . . . you said it. [chuckling] I appreciated it. We . . . oh, we were together on a number of things later on when the civil rights . . . civil rights bill finally came up [in] `64, and it was divided up . . . there were different sections between . . . for the . . . to have charge. We had a bipartisan for each section . . . a group, and Douglas and I handled a section together. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. Well now, . . . COOPER: Curious enough, the one that's caused the most trouble and arguments, busing. Although busing wasn't mentioned in it. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. Well now, on this . . . on this Depressed Areas bill . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . wasn't that bill very similar to the one that President Eisenhower had vetoed the previous year in 1960? He had vetoed a . . . COOPER: I think so. BILL COOPER: . . . a Depressed Areas bill. COOPER: Yeah. Yes. BILL COOPER: And . . . and the . . . you had . . . you had voted with the group to try to override the veto, but . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . but it was unsuccessful. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: Not . . . not many of Ike's vetoes were overridden, were they? COOPER: No! [laughter--Bill Cooper] No, you look back on it, it . . . more and more now [chuckling] it's being realized that . . . that he got along very well with the Congress. He didn't abuse them. He didn't . . . it seemed that he did not bully them or, you know, or [was] after them all the time. He had such prestige that nobody hardly would attack him. Even Lyndon Johnson wouldn't attack him until . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . the last two years he was in [office]. [laughing] BILL COOPER: Well now, of course one of the big differences in 1961 with this same bill is the fact that this time the president was very strong for it. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: Kennedy, as a matter of fact, I think, on the night of his inauguration . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . signed an executive order for distributing surplus commodities [and] food . . . COOPER: Some commodities, yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . to the ma-. . . to the needy. COOPER: That's . . . that's . . . that's the beginning of the food stamps. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: But later they . . . they started out distributing just the commodities themselves--meat, flour, pork, all that--and finally it was turned around just to give out food stamps. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. Had . . . had you ever discussed this bill with Kennedy before . . . when he was still a senator, since it had come up the previous year, or do you remember ever talking with him about it or . . . or was his support of this bill . . . did it come after, for instance, his campaign in 1960, when he campaigned in West Virginia and some of the depressed areas? Is . . . is that what, you think, . . . COOPER: Well, . . . BILL COOPER: . . . made him so strong for it or . . . COOPER: . . . I would . . . I would say today there's been a recession in every administration under which I've served. There was a slight recession the two years I served under [Harry S.] Truman. There was a recession in the late part of Eisenhower's administration. That's probably where that bill got its start . . . initiation. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. And I think it was first brought up in 1958. COOPER: That's right. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: Kennedy . . . a lot of people don't remember it, [but] there was a slight recession in 1961 and `62 in which he started a public works program and reduced taxes, the thing which is being . . . that's so much talked about today, reduction of taxes. Johnson, I don't know ever had one because the war saved him. And Nixon had the recession. I don't think [Gerald] Ford had one except the hangover from the Nixon [era] because he was just there a little over two years. And they . . . we had the beginnings of recession under President [James] Carter. So these things have been cyclical up and down. But to get back to the point, I'm sure that Kennedy had determined as a part of his campaign and that he would do these things which he thought would put people to work and help him in his race. And, of course, that was his kind of a philosophy anyway. Not as much as his brother Teddy today. Well, we . . . although we hadn't . . . we didn't have the time to determine it in the short time he was . . . that John Kennedy was president, but I . . . I'm . . . my opi-. . . my opinion is that . . . that's is when that developed. BILL COOPER: That . . . during the campaign? COOPER: Yeah. Yeah, and the fact of the depression before in the last days of [the] Eisenhower administration and . . . I can't remember all of John Kennedy's speeches, of course. I was . . . I was trying to speak [chuckling] myself. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: But he was promising, without question, that we're . . . we're going to have a more prosperous country. We're going to have people at work. We're going to take care of the people. BILL COOPER: Well, what . . . what kind of an impact do you think that bill had? Was it . . . did it have a great impact as far as long range results? COOPER: Oh, the economy came back in . . . pretty quickly and I don't think that it . . . it itself was the chief cause. It helped a lot of communities. Part of it was . . . was the construction of buildings. Now in Kentucky, for example, I can remember the court house was built over at . . . I think, the . . . the . . . I can't remember the exact proportion, but I believe that the federal government paid fifty percent and the local municipality, whether it's city or county, paid the other fifty percent, perhaps with the issuance of bonds. I remember the old court house over at Mount Vernon in Rockcastle County, because I'd been circuit judge over there for a while, the thing was about to fall in all the time [chuckle] and . . . well, they built a very nice, new court house over there through that. I was there at its dedication. They gave me the credit for getting the money for them. [laughter] They did one at Barboursville . . . Barbourville in [Knox County] was . . . was about to fall down. [In] London, Kentucky, they built one. I'm thinking of those just right around where I lived. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: Some built entirely new buildings, others remodeled. We had an old court house in Somerset; a very, I thought--naturally, I'd served in it--and it was old, old for Kentucky and, I think, a very beautiful court house. And it had been named as one of the most . . . among the ten most beautiful court houses in Kentucky by the . . . the man at the University of Kentucky who . . . who writes so much about Kentucky and . . . BILL COOPER: Oh, Tom Clark? COOPER: No. BILL COOPER: No? COOPER: One who does more on the artistic side. BILL COOPER: Oh, . . . COOPER: Coleman. BILL COOPER: . . . Coleman. Winston . . . COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . Coleman. COOPER: Yeah. I remember they had . . . he selected them, and the pictures of the ten court houses were in the Louisville Courier-Journal, and our court house was among the ten. I went before the Fiscal Court [chuckling] and urged them to take advantage of this to remodel the court house. It needed to have a furnace put in, plumbing, and . . . and it did need . . . it needed more room for the clerk's office . . . county clerk and . . . and the sheriff's office, and I urged them to buy the building next door, which they could have bought for about ten thousand dollars, and use that, decorate it properly for the clerk's office right . . . five yards away, and preserve the building and it [would have] been much cheaper. But I . . . I didn't . . . I wasn't successful. BILL COOPER: Oh, really? COOPER: Circuit court wouldn't . . . they turned me down. And years after that, they tore the whole . . . the building down and put up a new building. I'm not going to be critical, but I hate to see that one . . . one of the few beautiful buildings we have in Somerset gone, destroyed. Now, today all over Kentucky and all over the United States towns and municipalities are trying to revitalize, re-beautify, redecorate what they call "the inner city," you know. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Uh-huh. COOPER: But anyway, to get back to the point, they . . . they . . . they . . . there must have been hundreds of those done all over the United States. But, of course, they did give a lot of local employment not only to the people who built them but, of course, all the materials that went into them, and that was one facet of his . . . of his program which was so evident to everybody, too. So, it had political effects as well. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. Now, that was administered un-. . . through the Commerce Department, wasn't it, under Luther Hodges? COOPER: I don't recall. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: I'm . . . I know . . . BILL COOPER: I think so. COOPER: . . . I knew Luther Hodges. BILL COOPER: And I . . . I assume that . . . that the Commerce Department then made the determination of what constituted a depressed area and . . . and what . . . COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . who was available or who was eligible for . . . COOPER: Yes. Well, Luther Hodges, I think . . . I know was regarded as one . . . as a very, very able man. He'd been governor of North Carolina, very able. I met him a number of times, and his son now is in Washington. You know, his son, under Carter was . . . was secretary of commerce for a while. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: But Luther Hodges was an outstanding man and . . . and so, evidently, Kennedy would place great trust in him and I'm sure that he did good work in his position. BILL COOPER: In January of 1961 you were named to the Republican Policy Committee. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: Now, what exactly is the function of the Republican Policy Committee? COOPER: Well, I'm sure it's changed a lot since I was there. [laughing] Both parties have policy committees and they're supposed to represent a kind of cross section of the elements of the party. In fact, it . . . it did represent faithfully in our party, because most of our party, Republican, was on the conservative side. So the Policy Committee, [consisting of] probably twelve or fifteen members, was conservative, and Styles Bridges was the chairman, from New Hampshire. He's a very able man and very conservative, very determined, hard fighter, and did not talk . . . did not speak too much, but he was a good politician. And, of course, he had the support at that time, although President . . . we would discuss positions on proposals the president made and what position we'd take and if they had any ideal strategy, how we would meet difficult questions try to defeat them if we have to be . . . if we . . . if the consensus was against them, or to win if the legislation wanted and . . . at that point we met in the morning and there was actually more discussion. Later on and now--not always--but later on we began to meet at lunch, and I . . . I thought after that that we didn't have much discussion. [laughter--Bill Cooper] We'd have lunch and stay there for a short while, but we'd stay an hour or more or sometimes longer in . . . in these meetings in the . . . in the Policy Committee. And, oh, I . . . it's hard to remember a few things that . . . that's happened when I was a member, but the one thing I do remember more came along a little bit later during the civil rights battle. BILL COOPER: How long were you on the Policy Committee? COOPER: Oh, I don't know. I . . . I suppose I must have served six years that I was . . . that I was . . . that six years. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. Uh-huh. COOPER: I . . . we had disagreements and . . . but we . . . people kept their tempers most of the time [laughing] and . . . and . . . BILL COOPER: Were . . . were you a little surprised to be named to the Policy Committee right . . . right on the heels of having . . . COOPER: Voted . . . BILL COOPER: . . . voted to override Eisenhower's veto, and then taking up with two or three Democrats to sponsor the same bill again, and the next thing you know you're appointed to the Republican Policy Committee with Styles Bridges as chairman? COOPER: Well, I'Il tell you what. [laughter] I'd served with both of those fellows before, you know. After all, you know, I'd been running for office so long and I'd had those three short terms [of] . . . BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: . . . two, two, [and] four [years], and most . . . most of the people on that committee I'd served with. They knew my position and I suppose that maybe they picked me out as a token [laughter] to represent the . . . the minor . . . minority of tha-. . . of the Republican side. They were courteous to me though, and they . . . they . . . they listened if I talked. I don't know whether they . . . they accept [it], but they'd listen anyway. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: For example, I remember on one occasion, I think we . . . to be . . . I think they elected policy [sic chairman] . . . might have, at the beginning of every new Congress, and I . . . I remember the next time, Styles asked me to nominate him, Styles Bridges, and we hardly ever agreed on anything. [laughter] I did because he was a good . . . good chairman, good leader. [Mrs. Cooper enters the room] You remember my wife. [interruption in taping] Where was I? Anyway, he [Kennedy] had been elected, you know. But I . . . there was an in-. . . I had an interesting conversation with him about West Virginia. I don't know whether I told you about it . . . BILL COOPER: No. COOPER: . . . before or not? BILL COOPER: Uh-uh. COOPER: What? What? BILL COOPER: No, I . . . I don't remember that. COOPER: His chief opponent was, of course, Hubert Humphrey. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: And, of course, Hubert was exuberant and he . . . he . . . and he could not find enough things to be for, you know. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: He'd have fifteen or twenty balls in the air, legislation, and he'd spend time on all of them. Well, John Kennedy had gone out into Wisconsin and . . . and Minnesota, you know, where the people are . . . they greeted him joyfully, anyway. I don't think he carried it, but he ran Hubert a very close race out there. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: And the people, of course, are different from the people down in the mountains of West Virginia and Kentucky [chuckle], you know, more exuberant. One day John Kennedy called me up and said, "I'd like to come down and talk to you." And he came down and he said, "I've just come back from my first trip to West Virginia, and I went up along the Kentucky line through the coal mines." And he said, "I've never been as depressed in my life." He said, "The miners were standing out there and they didn't applaud. They just looked at me." I [chuckling] began to laugh. I said, "You're in pretty good shape. If they weren't going to be for you, if . . . if John L. Lewis had sent the word down to stay away from you, they wouldn't have been out there. You wouldn't have seen them." BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: He said, "How do you know that?" BILL COOPER: I said, "I've been . . . made so many trips up through . . . across the river there and in the same kind of territory, and when miners would come out, I knew I had a chance. And when nobo-. . . nobody showed up, I knew that the word had come down to be against me." [laughter] Well, that . . . he . . . and . . . and I told him another thing. And I said, "You know I like Hubert, and I'm not trying to butt into your primary," although I did like and I was closer to John Kennedy because we'd served on a committee together, you know, . . . Labor Committee, and I said, "Those miners just know one thing, coal. And they want to be . . . they want to have their mine safety regulations, they want to have this royalty from the mine owners, you know, that's deposited for them for pensions and, of course, they'd like to see it increased. And they know that the export of coal is important, particularly up in that area because it's a good metallurgical coal." And I said, "They don't give a hoop about . . . talking about foreign aid [chuckling], and all these other questions. It's coal." Well, that cheered him up [chuckle] and he carried West Virginia. Of course, I don't think that my advice was the primary reason. I think it's generally understood that an awful lot of money was spent in West Virginia by the Kennedy campaign and Reagan . . . and Humphrey ran out of money . . . ran out of money, and so John Kennedy carried West Virginia and that was another turning point, or at least considered to be pretty important, although it was not a large state in terms of electoral votes. But it . . . but he was absolutely confounded. He didn't have the slightest idea how to deal with those people [chuckle], but . . . BILL COOPER: On the 28th of January, 1961, President and Mrs. Kennedy came to dinner . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . here at your home. It was the first dinner invitation that they had accepted since they had moved into the White House about . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . eight days before. And this was supposedly the first time in the history of the country that a president had dined in the home of a senator of the opposite party. [laughter--Cooper] What . . . what are your recollections of that historic event, or did you [laughter--Cooper] look upon it as historic at the time? COOPER: No, not historic, just kind of friendly. I . . . I would like to say here that during the time that I had known John Kennedy, which is not continuously, but . . . because I was out of the Senate a good deal in the `50s, you know. He came in in 1952 when I was defeated, and then I came back in `56. But I served on a committee with him and I got to know him there and, curious enough, it was the Labor Committee and he was the most conservative member . . . Democrat on it. And it was the . . . and I was on the Republican side and, I suppose, with the exception of Jack Javits from New York, I was the most liberal Republican, and our views were somewhat similar. We . . . he . . . I think he trusted me because he . . . first, I was a Republican and I wasn't . . . he knew that I wasn't going to talk or tell anything, and I was older, and somehow . . . and also, his wife and my wife had been friends, although there was quite a difference in age, of course, but he wasn't married then when . . . either when . . . and they'd come up to the Senate now and then. But he'd talk to me about things and he . . . one of the things he'd talk to me about would be the . . . labor. He said, "I . . . of course I am for labor. Naturally I am, from . . . it's in my tradition; Massachusetts, Irish . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . and growing up among the Irish laboring people," and all that. And . . . but he said, "And I vote with them all I can but," he said, "they press me too much and want me to do things I don't want to do." And he said . . . I just told him, I said--everybody called him Jack then-I said, "Jack, I . . . I don't know what you've got to worry about. They know you're going to be a candidate for president. They're going to be for you whatever you do. You're the only candidate they've got." [laughter] And because . . . well, Hubert . . . and they deserted Hubert too, a lot of labor did, you know. But I said, "You're the likely candidate for president. You're not going to make them angry." I said, "I'd vote for them when . . . you . . . you're going to be voting for them about three-fourths of the time anyway, and if there are a couple of other things . . . several things, you don't want to vote for them, I wouldn't vote for them," and he did, too. I've got several examples, later, and it didn't hurt him. BILL COOPER: No. COOPER: [Inaudible] as a candidate. He . . . twice he went against them and . . . and told me about it and [chuckling] it didn't hurt him. They . . . they were going to nominate him anyway, you know. But I liked that about him. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: That he had that much independence and he, for some reason, I think--and I hope it doesn't sound egotistical-- he . . . he liked me because I told him what I believed and, although he knew I would be against him in the . . . in the . . . when he was a candidate, and I was. I spoke against him in Kentucky and I was a candidate myself and, of course, I spoke for the whole ticket. I spoke for Nixon, although I liked Kennedy better, frankly, as a person. And . . . but I spoke for Nixon and in every speech I made. I did . . . at the first opening of my campaign in Lancaster when I approached the door, it was raining so we spoke inside a rather large school building. There was a line on the outside of the building of anti-Kennedy [people] who were urging not to vote for him because he was a Catholic. And when I went in I said . . . and started my speech I said, "Before I get into my regular opening speech of this campaign, I want to make a statement." I said, "I am not connected with those people outside. I do not know them. I do not agree with them." I said, "The fact that . . . that Mr. Kennedy is a Catholic, he . . . he's got the same right to be a candidate as anyone else, and I don't believe in . . . in bringing a person's religion into this race." And, of course, they did bring it in, but . . . but anyway, that was my statement and I made it several other places in doing the state. But that's another curious thing; the greatest anti-Catholic vote against him was down in . . . down in western Kentucky . . . BILL COOPER: Hmm! COOPER: . . . the Democratic section. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: Up in the east, where there are more Republicans, of course, I don't know whether they . . . they probably didn't vote for him anyway, but the Democrats up there, the . . . the big Seventh District . . . Carl Perkins' district, it went just about the same. So there wasn't any great anti-Catholic vote against him up there, it was down in western Kentucky. BILL COOPER: Well, do you have any . . . any specific recollections about . . . COOPER: Oh, about the . . . BILL COOPER: . . . the dinner? COOPER: Yeah. I . . . it's hard to remember just how it started. It might have happened before he was elected, that . . . oh, I don't know. He said, "Well, we'll come over and have dinner with you," or something like that. Of course, before he was elected, we'd have dinner with them at times down at their house. They lived down the street here about three blocks. And the picture in here of . . . of having dinner with him . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . at . . . at their house. He came to [chuckle] . . . or his wife came to my wife and said, "You know, the New York Ti-. . . the Time magazine wants a picture of you all dining with some of your friends at your home. And she said, "Well, you're our friends. You come and dine with us." Here [chuckling] we're two Republicans and . . . and we went down to Kennedy's and had dinner with them, and it was print-. . . printed . . . it was in the New York . . . it was Time magazine and the picture's in here in our living room now sitting there. [chuckle] So they might have come over in return for that, I don't know. Wasn't any talk about it much, they just . . . as I recall, we had a f-. . . it wasn't very large. We had maybe twelve people there, maybe sixteen. And . . . and just . . . it was perfectly normal and there wasn't . . . no great . . . no . . . no security. They . . . we didn't . . . we didn't have anybody up there look through the house . . . BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. Oh, is that right? COOPER: What? BILL COOPER: There wasn't any . . . COOPER: Oh, there might . . . probably somebody came along . . . BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: . . . and they might have been someplace, I'm sure of it; but he didn't seem to care . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah COOPER: . . . about it. And . . . because I remember another occasion when he showed he didn't care [and] he didn't worry about security. But I can't remember anything particular about it. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: It was a rather normal . . . normal meeting. BILL COOPER: It . . . it didn't . . . it didn't appear to you to be so historic at the time, then? [chuckle] COOPER: No. Now, we did invite Barry Bingham up for it, and whether it happened or not, I'm not sure, but I think . . . I think he did tell or he did say later that he had offered Barry Bingham to be the ambassador to Great Britain, and that Barry said he couldn't take it because of the . . . his sons. They had . . . they were younger then and he had to take care of the paper down there. Now, whether that's correct or not, I do not know. We had the English ambassador at that time and his wife and . . . well, I . . . I . . . I [chuckling] can't tell you who else was here. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: We had some people from the Senate and . . . and . . . I can't tell you. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: But . . . but it was just [chuckle--Bill Cooper] . . . it . . . it . . . it was very . . . well, I mean, nobody made a great fuss over it, and we enjoyed it and I think they did. BILL COOPER: Now, in . . . in February of that year, 1961, you and . . . and Governor Bert Combs were . . . were scheduled to speak to a meeting of the Southern Baptists in Louisville at the Brown Hotel. You failed to show up . . . COOPER: Umhmm. BILL COOPER: . . . and the next morning the Courier-Journal, on the fr-. . . on the front page, ran a picture of you in Washington the previous night, when they thought . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . you were supposed to be in Louisville going into this In-. . . showing of an Indian movie with President Kennedy. COOPER: Uh-huh. BILL COOPER: Now, do you remember that . . . that . . . why there was the . . . the scheduling mix-up there, and you remember the movie you went to with . . . with . . . Kennedy? COOPER: I don't . . . I'm going to be honest with you and, of course, I know it'll be hard for a lot of people to believe because I spoke to a number of Baptists . . . was this a Baptist meeting? BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. Yeah. COOPER: A number of Baptist meetings, I spoke to the Southern Baptist convention in Louisville once. That's the whole convention, you know. Brooks Hayes then, a great congressman from Arkansas, was president and he invited me . . . he's the one who invited me to speak to them. Of course, the committee did. I spoke in . . . I remember once I spoke in in . . . in . . . in either Owensboro or Henderson to Baptists. Of course, I spoke in my own town . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . at the Baptist church and I . . . made other speeches. I think I spoke in Ohio once. I don't . . . I tell you the truth, I don't remember this . . . of being invited to speak there at all. BILL COOPER: Oh, is that right? Well, you . . . you went the following night . . . COOPER: Yeah? BILL COOPER: . . . and spoke, which really was when you were supposed to go . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . because you had . . . you took a letter with you . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . showing . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . that that . . . you were there at the right time. They had become confused themselves . . . COOPER: Is that so? BILL COOPER: . . . and had announced that you were supposed to be there the previous night, when you weren't at all. And then . . . COOPER: But I did appear then at the right time? BILL COOPER: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: Well, I'm glad to hear that . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah, [chuckling] that's right. COOPER: . . . because I'd . . . I'd forgotten . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . all about it. BILL COOPER: Yeah. But . . . but the previous night, the night they had thought you were supposed to be there, you went to this Indian movie with . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . President Kennedy. COOPER: Yes. Yes. BILL COOPER: Do you remember that? You were . . . COOPER: Yes, I . . . BILL COOPER: . . . telling me a story about that one time. COOPER: . . . yes, I went with him. BILL COOPER: But I don't think it's on tape. I'd like to get that on tape it you wouldn't mind telling that again. COOPER: Well, not many people know it, but India is the second biggest producer of moving pictures in the world after the United States, and they go on for hours. They're among the dullest. [laughter] I don't mind saying that, they are. [laughter] And there was a new ambassador here and I . . . I didn't know him very well; I had just met him. But Kennedy had just come in as president, hadn't been . . . been there very long and . . . and so he had this . . . showed this Indian moving picture and he invited, of course, President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and he invited my wife and me, but not togeth-. . . not with the Kennedys now. We . . . it was an entirely separate invitation. But President Kennedy called me up and he said, "I'm going to this Indian" [laughter] ". . . Indian movie," and he said, "Jackie can't go." [He] said, "She's sick in bed. [laughter--Bill Cooper] And he said, "Will you and Lorraine go with me?" And I said, "Why, yes. We'll go with you." And, "Well," he said, "if you don't mind, just meet . . . meet me down there at . . . at the . . . at the White House in the rear gate." There's a gate back there where they . . . goes into the wing. And so, [chuckling] it was cold. Well, we went down there and there he was standing out there alone without a coat or hat on and [laughing] . . . and he did have a car, because we'd gone down there in a cab, and we got in the car, and I don't remember any guard except the driver, and we drove out to where this picture was being shown. And we went in with them. I . . . I don't know. I don't think the ambassador appreciated it very much that we [laughing] . . . but . . . I . . . I . . . although I've usually gotten along well with all of them because of my service in India. Got along very well with all of them. But, of course, he sat up with the president and we sat back in the next row. Well, it lasted about three or four hours. [laughter] No, not that long, about three [hours], and then we went back and the president said, "Well, let's go down to the White House. I want to show it to you." He was just like a boy, which he was. So we went down there and he took us all around and . . . not everyplace, but I mean a lot of places you otherwise wouldn't have gone, you know. Up into the living quarters and . . . and, "Let's see . . . " he said, "Let's see how Jackie is." He said, "I don't think she's very sick. I don't think she wanted to go." [laughter] So he opened the door and there she was propped up in bed reading a book or something and laughing, so we . . . we talked awhile, laughed, and went away. But that was the story of going to the moving picture. [chuckle--Bill Cooper] I'm glad I didn't miss the Baptists though, they . . . BILL COOPER: No, . . . COOPER: . . . I don't think they would have liked it. BILL COOPER: . . . no, you . . . you were there at the right time. COOPER: I'm a pretty faithful Baptist, too. [laughter-- Bill Cooper] BILL COOPER: Early in . . . in 1961, you expressed some . . . some mild displeasure because you were . . . you were getting so many letters from Republican patronage seekers wanting a job in a Democratic administration. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: Why . . . why were they writing to you to get a job in a Democratic administration? Is . . . was this a problem that you continually had during the . . . during all the administrations, including the Democratic ones that you served? COOPER: All and continuing today. BILL COOPER: Yeah? COOPER: I still get them today. Nothing like I did in those days, of course. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: But I average ten a week. I answer them all, but I can't do it . . . I have to . . . sometimes I'm backed up two or three months and I tell them what to do. Who to get in touch with; Senator [Walter "Dee"] Huddleston or Senator [Wendell] Ford or Carl Perkins or . . . or whoever their congressman is, [and] get some support from their own . . . own leaders down there. Of course a lot of Republicans write me, too. They think I can get them a job. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: But now . . . in those days, yes, I was flooded with them. Not as many as when Eisenhower went in, of course. BILL COOPER: Do . . . a lot of people seemed to think that because you were friends with President Kennedy, that you would have a special in as far as . . . COOPER: I think . . . BILL COOPER: . . . patronage was concerned? COOPER: . . . that . . . that may have been some of it, too. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: That may have been some of it, but I never had a . . . I never . . . BILL COOPER: You were . . . COOPER: There was one fellow who had been--who's dead now, and I . . . I wouldn't like to give his name--who I had gotten a job for him when President Eisenhower was president. And he was a good man and [had a] nice wife, and they were about to move him out. I . . . Kennedy didn't know anything about it, of course, just the locals, and I've forgotten who'd be governor then. I don't remember who was governor of Kentucky in 19-. . . Combs, I guess, wasn't it? BILL COOPER: It w-. . . in the early `60s, Combs . . . COOPER: `60s, yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . was governor. COOPER: I don't [think] even he had anything to do with it. The job was in Lexington. Well, I did speak to . . . I did speak to a fellow down at the White House who I knew and [chuckling] he said, "He won't be fired," and he wasn't and he held his position. But I . . . I never . . . I never . . . I never . . . I can't remember any other occasion when I . . . when I did that, but I . . . I did it because I . . . I . . . I was a friend of this man, but I . . . I knew also that he'd done . . . he was a good man and had done good work and there was really no reason, except for the fact, of course, it happens in all administrations, that he's just from another BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: But there was nothing to it. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: He . . . he . . . he . . . he won't lose his job. [laughter] Huh? BILL COOPERR: Do you have any . . . do you recall some . . . some good patronage stories? You were . . . you told me one one time and, again, that . . . it isn't on tape either and I . . . I'd like to get it on tape. Do you remember the Redbird? COOPER: Oh, yeah. BILL COOPER: The old guy from Redbird. COOPER: Fellow up in Bell County. I think it was Redbird. Oh, he was after me all the time. He wanted to be appointed ambassador to Great Britain. [chuckle] Well, he was a fine man, but . . . like I . . . I . . . I . . . I wouldn't have been qualified and I . . . naturally I didn't . . . just a lot of people. He wrote a good letter on . . . on a good tablet, you know . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . and good old, homey, folksy letter and . . . but he was insistent. He wanted to be . . . he wanted to be ambassador to Great Britain [laughter], so I wrote him a letter kind of . . . I think kind of deceptive. I'm ashamed to say I told him that . . . well, I couldn't tell him, you know, and I hated to tell him he wasn't qualified. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: I just told him that I didn't think he'd like it. They have awful bad weather over there and . . . and that while they spoke English, it was hard to . . . English was hard to understand and [chuckling] . . . and I didn't think he'd like it. Well, he wrote me right back and he said then, "Well, I want to be postmaster of Redbird." [laughter] I got the feeling that's what he'd wanted all along, huh? Huh? BILL COOPER: He set you up, didn't he? COOPER: Huh? Yeah. Yeah. BILL COOPER: He set you up. COOPER: He did. [laughter] And . . . oh, lots of things like that, of patron-. . . I remember when Eisenhower came in, of course, he was the first Republican president, you know, since [Herbert] Hoover and since the [Franklin D.] Roosevelt and Truman days. My office was just crowded with people wanting jobs, and I finally had to just tell some of them one day, I said, "You know, I can't get you all a job. I . . . I . . . I'll do . . . I'll do what I can. You give me your resumes and I'll send them to the proper people," and, of course, there were people I did get jobs for. They . . . they [inaudible] you know, post offices and places that I . . . I did get them for them. One fellow wanted to be a United States marshall and he . . . he sat in my office a week, and I told him, I said, "I . . . I can't even get time to go down and talk to the . . . to the attorney general's office about you. I can't . . . you . . . you're here all the time. I can't." [laughter] It didn't make him mad. But, oh, that was a job, though, that patronage business. Of course now, you know, the post offices are removed under this special commission and they're selected by this commission. I don't think they do any better. I was the only one that voted against the bill. BILL COOPER: Oh, is that right? COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: Huh! COOPER: I . . . I . . . of course, it was probably political, but I did have this feeling that I would know as much about a man in Redbird, huh? And I remember that in my speech I said Pippa Passes, pretty ne-. . . pretty word, you know . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . up in Carl Perkins' district. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: And I named two or three other places. I think I know as much about who would serve those people as postmaster well as some commission up in Cincinnati or wherever they're going to sit. I think it's Cincinnati. And . . . and I think I can select one just as well as they can or better, and . . . but I think most people were glad to get it off their shoulders. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah, I would guess so. COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. Yeah. COOPER: And I selected . . . it was tough. I remember one county there was a man there who'd been my dear friend for years and helped me in every race I'd run, and with . . . he had . . . a man of good sense. But the county organization was against him and that was kind of tough, you know, because they were . . . had been for me too, but I selected my friend because he'd been with me from the very beginning, you see, and that . . . they took it all right, but it was kind of a tough job. BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. Now, also in January of 1961, you proposed an aid to education . . . COOPER: Umhmm. BILL COOPER: . . . bill, calling for something like . . . somewhere in the vicinity of three and a half billion . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . dollars, which was based, I think, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I think it was based essentially on . . . on principles that were first formulated by you and and . . .and Robert Taft back in 1947 . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . in the education bill . . . COOPER: That's right. BILL COOPER: . . . you worked on. Could you . . . you talk a bit about that . . . that bill, what your goals were in it; and also at the same time there was a . . . a . . . the Kennedy administration had an education bill in the works, too. COOPER: Uh-huh. BILL COOPER: Now, yours differed from theirs and it . . . do you recall some of the differences and what happened to the bills and . . . and any recollections at all you have about that? COOPER: I know this is pretty bad, but it's pretty difficult to go back and remember all the features of a bill after . . . unless I went and got the bills and read them again . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: . . . which I ought to do sometime. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: I had been interested in education always. I guess it had grown from my father's interest and [my] mother's too, because my mother was a teacher, you know, . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . until she was seventy. And then, of course, there was a surprise, but a very happy surprise when I came to the Senate and Senator Taft, who was undoubtedly the leader of the Republican party in the Senate and, also, I would say, one of the great leaders of the whole Senate itself. As I look back on it now, I think of him as probably the ablest man that I ever served with as far as mind, intellect, [was] concerned. Doesn't mean you agreed with him, and who agrees with . . . you don't agree with everybody on anything. BILL COOPER: No. COOPER: But as far as ability, strength, force, and the ability to debate and to hold his own, and his strength, I consider him, I think, the most consistent and ablest that I served with. And having voted against . . . my first vote was cast against the Republican party up there, and that made . . . I was really surprised when he came and said he wanted me to be on this . . . sponsor of this bill . . . bill. Now, of course, he developed the bill, chiefly, but the members on the bill were George Aiken of Vermont, a very fine and able man and a very able senator from Utah, a Democrat and, again, I . . . I cannot right for the moment remember his name, but he was . . . he'd been an educator himself and . . . and Senator Taft really fought for that bill and worked for it. And he was considered so conservative by . . . you know, by a lot of people and a good many on the Democratic side after having gone through the "New Deal" of course, considered him a very conservative man. He was as far as fiscal affairs were concerned. Also, he was not particularly, I would say, a . . . an internationalist. He felt the United States ought to attend to its own business most of the time, keep its . . . keep out of the affairs of other countries unless we had a stake in it ourselves. Although he did support [Arthur] Vandenberg in his bipartisan work with President Truman. Actually, Senator Vandenberg on the domestic side was more conservative than Taft, but Taft made a statement in that . . . in a speech which ought never be forgotten and it's quoted in many books, in which he gave us part of his philosophy. He . . . he believed, of course, in the private enterprise system and that government should keep out of the affairs of the people as much as possible. Sounds like [Ronald] Reagan almost. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: But he said, "As far as I . . . equal opportunity, as far as education is concerned, as far as employment is concerned, far as health is concerned, I think the government has a duty to provide for those who cannot provide for themselves." That's a pretty broad statement, but he said it and he meant it. And . . . well, the pa-. . . the bill passed the . . . the . . . passed the Senate, first educational bill of that type that had ever passed either house of the Congress, but which never did pass the House, although the House was Republican . . . both houses of that . . . in `47 and `48 were Republican. I don't know why. BILL COOPER: Hmm. Now, that particular bill then was not revived until 1961 when you introduced a similar bill? COOPER: No, there wasn't anything else done about education. Well, of course, I wasn't there all the time. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: But when I got on the Labor Educa-. . . Labor Committee which also involved education, you know, it gave me a chance to . . . better chance, being on the committee, . . . BILL COOPER: Right. COOPER: . . . and I think my bill was similar to the Taft bill. I know that I would've . . . the arguments were there, . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . and I thought it was a good bill and . . . curious enough, there was a complaint made about the bill . . . all education bills there until it finally passed, and that was that money in the bill that would be . . . go to teachers. I can remember Everett Dirksen--and I say this with . . . a man that I liked very much and who . . . who did great work--but he . . . I remember him saying, "We'll be deluged with teachers asking for more money all the time from the . . . from the Congress of the United States," [laughter] and . . . but that was, of course, if you . . . if you made money available to the school's system, you made it more possible for them to pay the teachers more, and Lord knows, they didn't make very much in those days, and that . . . BILL COOPER: I think the main . . . the main difference between your bill and . . . and the administration bill [was] there was a difference in . . . in the formula whereby the money would be distributed among the states. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: And . . . and your contention was that in the long run the . . . the poorer states . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . would get more from your bill . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . than they would from the Kennedy bill. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: Now, I don't know whether . . . whether the bill that finally passed was a compromise between the two. I don't . . . I don't know that. I don't recall. COOPER: I think the bill that finally passed [microphone interference] has been considered as fair among the states in the division of funds. Only problem is just . . . there's just never enough. [chuckle] Later on . . . well, you may recall that after Taft's death, a man named Senator [William] Knowland from California, became the Republican Leader. [Lyndon B.] Johnson, by that time, had become the . . . the Democratic Leader. I got my bill out of committee and on the calendar, and I spoke several times urging that it be brought up for a vote, that it be scheduled. Both Johnson and Knowland refused to do it and said they would not do it. BILL COOPER: Did they give any reason for that? COOPER: No, they just said they would not do it. They . . . they were for . . . weren't for it. They say they weren't for it, but they prevented it from being put on the calendar. Knowland was a man you couldn't talk to. He . . . he assumed himself as . . . well, as the authority for every question nearly and had very little consultation with members of the . . . of the Republican side. And he and Johnson were very close and thick and . . . but I can remember very well when they both turned me down flat. BILL COOPER: So then you had to wait until `61 to bring it up again? COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: Now, while that . . . while that bill was . . . was before the Congress, the issue of . . . of aid to parochial schools . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . came up. What was your position on that issue? COOPER: I was against it. BILL COOPER: Have you . . . what was the administration position . . . the Kennedy position? COOPER: I think they were very careful and they . . . I . . . I think Kennedy took the same position, . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah, he did. COOPER: . . . he being a Catholic. There were things about the bill and, of course, that you . . . as it has evolved which . . . as the educational bills have evolved, [they] have been helpful in ways to parochial schools. I think in . . . I'm not sure, but I think in . . . perhaps lunches; I'm not sure, but I think they have. And there . . . at least there was some things which were somewhat helpful to them. But as far as . . . as appropriations to parochial schools, they were just denied. I . . . I just took the position of . . . the old position which is in the Constitution . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: . . . [separation of] church and state and . . . BILL COOPER: Have you ever changed your mind on that issue? COOPER: No. BILL COOPER: You still feel that way. COOPER: Although I think the . . . I must say, I think the Catholics run quite good schools. They're very . . . they have . . . of course, they teach religion without question, I'm sure, and . . . but they have good . . . I think they insist on scholarship and on grades and on being able to pass the work that's given to them. It's caused a good many non-Catholics to send their children to Catholic schools. Of course, some of them will send them to Catholic schools because of busing. But it is interesting that John Kennedy himself . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah, he took the same position you did . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . on the issue. Umhmm. [End of Tape #1, Side #2] [Begin Tape #2, Side #1] BILL COOPER: In January of 1961, you called in the Senate for legislation that would give the attorney general the authority to intervene in a suit instituted by a Negro . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . seeking to enter a . . . an all . . . a previously all white school. Now, the attorney general already had some authority to intervene in court cases, but not . . . those were limited I think to . . . COOPER: Voting. BILL COOPER: . . . to voting cases. COOPER: Voting. Voting. BILL COOPER: Yeah. You also acted as a cosponsor with, I think, [Kenneth B.] Keating and [Jacob] Javits to offer a legislative package--there were about seven different things . . . COOPER: Yeah. Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . involved--designed generally to shore up the . . . the civil rights program. In . . . in your estimation, what were . . . what were some of the . . . the most serious things [or] most urgent needs at that time in the field of civil rights? COOPER: Yeah. If you don't mind, I'll go back just for a few minutes. BILL COOPER: Go . . . go on. COOPER: You've got to remember that the civil rights battle actually began--of course it had been going on for years by individuals--but as a legislative matter it really began during the administration of President Eisenhower. You know, the march, the riots . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . and the problems we were having of the blacks who were trying to enter Southern schools. And I think the . . . I believe that the . . . the . . . is it Montgomery or . . . where . . . I think it was in the `50s where the sheriff turned the dogs on blacks and . . . and had . . . anyway that was . . . caused a great consternation. I . . . I . . . I remember when that event happened. I was the only one that spoke from the Senate that . . . on it and denounced it and said that the . . . both parties were failures and the Republican party ought . . . ought to be the most ashamed because it was the one which, under [Abraham] Lincoln, had freed the slaves and had proclaimed itself always as the . . . un-. . . until the "New Deal," as the great leader of the blacks, and they were. The blacks voted for the Republicans until Roosevelt came in. But anyway, that we had passed . . . it was considered then if . . . if you could pass a voting act, that would satisfy most problems because of the right to vote. The blacks could press their . . . their interests. A weakness in it, though, was that if they tried to vote and couldn't vote, the only remedy they . . . they had was to bring suit themselves. They didn't have the money. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: They couldn't get the lawyers [chuckling] and they couldn't win. Even under Eisenhower, we . . . we tried to secure a bill . . . an amendment to it to permit the attorney general to intervene and . . . on behalf of . . . of blacks who had been denied the vote, and thereby shoulder the expenses and the . . . and the . . . and the . . . and the legal work for them, but it was defeated. And the Southerners then had a tremendous . . . had . . . they had really an organization to filibuster. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: That was Dick Russell, who was a very able man, and they had every . . . every senator south of Kentucky with the exception of . . . of . . . I'm not sure whether [Albert] Gore and [Estes] Kefauver were in the Senate at that time or not. Every Democratic senator signed what they called "the Southern Manifesto," you know. And . . . well, that was about the way it was when . . . when we came . . . when we came to the `60s. These other questions had not been settled, although you . . . you'd had the court rulings--Brown vs. the Board of Education [of Topeka, Kansas] in the Supreme Court--I think it was 1956--and similar rulings on desegregation of schools and desegregation generally. But it was resisted and, really, was not any . . . had been . . . there was no . . . been no particular advances in it. It's interesting though. Eisenhower would never comment on the Supreme Court decision [and] yet, he obeyed the law. He sent troops to Little Rock, Arkansas, you remember . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . when [Orville] Faubus . . . Governor Faubus tried to prevent the entry of . . . of blacks into white schools. And he also favored the intervention of the attorney general to secure the rights. Well, when we entered the administration of President Kennedy, it . . . it was realized that just the right to vote could not alone secure the equal rights as had been held by the Supreme Court, and I always believed under the Fourteenth Amendment of the Constitution. So then various bills began to be introduced. Now, this is something which is . . . a lot of people may not believe, but a group of us . . . a bipartisan group . . . you mentioned, oh, a hile ago . . . BILL COOPER: Javits and Keating. COOPER: Keating, Javits . . . Keating, Paul Douglas--he was a great advocate, strong--and . . . oh, a large number. We urged Robert Kennedy, the attorney general, to send up legislation--this is about l96l--[and] he didn't do so. He said it wasn't needed at the time. It was too early. Now that's . . . that's not generally known, but that's a fact and I've talked about it several times with those that are still living and . . . many of them are dead though, of course. Keating is dead. Of course, Javits remembered it and Douglas remembered. Douglas got very angry about it. And then . . . BILL COOPER: I think Douglas mentions that in his book. COOPER: He does? BILL COOPER: I think he does. COOPER: Well, I . . . he feels . . . he was a straight man. Then we began to introduce our own bills. I introduced a bill myself--and I . . . I . . . I'll . . . I will furnish you the citation bec-. . . it is mentioned in the . . . in the . . . I'm not sure whether it's mentioned in this . . . this particular book or not--which I introduced and for which I had about thirty-something sponsors including Hubert Humphrey. And then I joined on another bill which was separate in a way for different purposes, and I'm not saying that I did all this, but I . . . I know that I di-. . . that I introduced a bill which covered all the elements in it except one, housing. And I didn't . . . it wasn't because I didn't . . . to tell you the truth, I . . . I . . . I didn't know exactly how you'd argue the question of private housing. Schools were public, voting was public, public accommodations, trains, restaurants, all that were public and that was the reason I left it out. It wasn't that I knew it wasn't a problem, but I . . . I . . . I just didn't know actually how I would argue it. Of course, if . . . if the Congress passes something, it's the law anyway [chuckle] . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . if it's not unconstitutional, but I didn't know. Well, that went along and we finally got our bill when Johnson became president, and it covered all of the elements that . . . that are now the law like desegregation of all public places. It . . . enforcement of voting rights [and], in fact, the abolition of the poll tax, although he . . . that that was done . . . that was done . . . that . . . that was a bill introduced by . . . by President . . . Senator . . . Senator Kennedy [regarding] the public accommodations of all trains, restaurants, and all that. And I had one disagreement with him on that. They placed that under the Commerce Clause and so I . . . I said, "Why not un-. . . like the rest, under the Fourteenth Amendment as a whole. If they . . . if you give equal rights, if we . . . the case was based on the Fourteenth Amendment, why don't we base this on the Fourteenth Amendment. You treat them like we're shipping cattle or goods in commerce." And I went before the Judiciary Committee and argued that they change that and that they place it under the Fourteenth Amendment. Arthur Krock, who was a columnist for the New York Times and a Kentuckian, I guess you know, . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . from Glasgow, then he went to the Courier- Journal, and I don't think he was for civil rights at all [chuckle--Bill Cooper], but . . . but [chuckling] he wrote a big article in the New York Times about my proposal and said I was absolutely right. He said if one was to . . . he got around it, I think, by saying if . . . if one was legal and constitutional under the Fourteenth Amendment, then public accommodations ought to be under the Fourteenth Amendment, too, and not treating them like cattle [chuckling] and so forth. You couldn't tell from that whether he was for the whole . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . thing or not. But anyway, he wrote a good article on it for me . . . for my position. I think the administration really believed that, but . . . and I'll tell you why. Cox was handling the matter for them over in the administration; you know, Cox. BILL COOPER: Arch-. . . Archibald Cox. COOPER: Archibald Cox, a very able lawyer, you know, [and] later became famous in the Watergate matter. He came over to see me and talked to me about it and told me that he personally agreed that I was right, but he said, "We have an awful lot of trouble anyway, you know, with the filibuster, and the idea of public accommodations where these Southerners and the people who are against . . ."--there . . . there were people who would've voted against it, too, who were not Southerners, you know--and the idea of . . . of eating with them . . . going in restaurants and eating with them . . . eating with a black, moving pictures, barber shops, he said, "It'll just go up and just make it harder and harder and harder," and I didn't see the . . . particularly what difference [it made], whether it was under the Commerce [Clause] or Fourteenth Amendment on that issue, but he said, he think . . . he . . . he said, "I . . . I think we can do better on it and it . . . it may be . . . the other may be unconstitutional," but anyway, they stuck with it and, of course, it passed. The real problem though was to get it up for a vote. Russell . . . the question was, would he ever give up, you know, the filibuster. We had the long speeches. You remember the speech of Strom Thurmond? BILL COOPER: Umhmm. Yeah. COOPER: What? BILL COOPER: Yeah. Went for twenty-some hours. COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: No . . . yeah, twenty-some hours. COOPER: I . . . I met Strom in Europe during the war and I was for . . . I . . . I . . . I was . . . at the time he spoke, of course, he was still a member of the Democratic party. He . . . his first wife was living and a very fine woman. When he was making that speech, I went over there [to the Senate chamber] about seven o'clock at night . . . well, I'd been there before. I'd just gone out to eat. She was standing out in the reception room and I knew her, and she was a very fine woman, and she told me she was worried sick. And she said, "Would you go walk by Strom and tell him that I'm worried about him. I'm afraid he'll die. Ask if he won't quit!" Well, I did and I just whispered, I said, "Your wife's out there. She's worried sick, Strom. She wants you to quit." He said, "You go back and tell her I never felt better in my life," [laughter] and he spoke about four hours longer. He jumped on me during that debate. BILL COOPER: Oh, he did? COOPER: Yeah, in a nice way. We . . . he alwa-. . . we got along always together. We never voted . . . we never voted much together, but we . . . I guess because that we'd met in Europe that we had a kind of association. But I remember I . . . I asked . . . I said something one day, maybe just asked a question and . . . and he said, "Now, there's the senator from Kentucky," he said. Oh, of course he bragged on me. "The distinguished senator," he said, "Man who fought for his country," [laughing] although I didn't do much fighting. I was there . . . over there, but . . . and . . . "and he . . . he's from Kentucky. He's a Southerner. Why isn't he with us? Why isn't . . . why aren't you helping us?" [laughter] I told him, I said, you know, I . . . my answer was that my family had . . . had . . . did . . . that they had been for Lincoln, or they . . . I don't whether they had or not, to tell you the truth. There weren't many for Lincoln in Kentucky, but I said they were for the abolition of slavery and . . . and we've always been for the equal rights, and I am, too. And that's [chuckling] about the end of it. But anyway, Johnson was the one who really . . . you'll have to give him the credit who . . . now he had . . . he and . . . he and . . . and Dirksen worked together all the time on this matter, and Dirksen deserves a lot of credit. Dirksen at first was doubtful about public accommodations, but he came around on that. And then he made some tremendous speeches, which he could do, you know. A lot of people thought they were extemporaneous, but they weren't. They were extemporaneous in the fact that he didn't read them, but you'd go in his office and he'd be at his books, he'd be making outlines, he'd have it in his head and when he'd come out, you know, he'd just have a little piece of paper lying there in front of him. Of course, he could speak extemporaneously too, you know, when he got . . . when he got in a worked up mood. And he held the Republicans, if any of them were doubtful, in line. I . . . I don't know. It was always rather amazing to me that the Middle West Republicans never did take much . . . much interest in it. You'd speak to them and they'd say, "Well, the blacks already come to our schools. They come in our . . . they can come any place they want to." They'd use that. "Why should we get so excited about it." To go back to the [Republican] Policy Committee, that was one time I . . . I . . . I did get up and I did say I felt that that those who ought to be the strongest for it were those from the Middle West because they'd fought in the Civil War--they had too, you know, a lot of them even for their states even--and they had fought for [it] in those early days, and they had desegregation, although they didn't have many blacks. But they ought to be really entering this fight, but they weren't. I don't think they liked it, but I . . . I said what I thought. And . . . and that Dirksen could do it a much [chuckling] . . . much cleverer way, and . . . and they liked him, anyway. He was their leader. But how Johnson ever got . . . got Dick Russell to stop, I do not know. I . . . one night, he had been going on a long time and Bob Byrd, the present Democratic Minority Leader or had been the Majority Leader, he . . . he spoke that night against it. Spoke eight hours . . . BILL COOPER: Hmm. COOPER: . . . before we voted on it. Nobody ever knew why he did it, except that he just graduated from law school and they thought that [chuckling] he wanted to show that he knew the law, or knew his version of the law. And . . . but evidently it had been worked out before that and that's the ti- 126 . . . only time Johnson ever spoke to me about it. He . . . he said to me, we were walking along in the aisle and he said, "If I can just keep Dick Russell now in line, we'll get a vote." BILL COOPER: But he didn't . . . he didn't say how he got him in line in the first . . . COOPER: He didn't say. BILL COOPER: Huh. COOPER: But, by golly, he did it. BILL COOPER: Yeah. [chuckle] COOPER: But imagine, he told me that. He said, "If I can just keep him in line now, we'll have a vote." BILL COOPER: It would be interesting to know how he did it. 127 COOPER: How he did it, yeah. I . . . and, by golly, it ended and they . . . they got a vote and . . . BILL COOPER: Well, why . . . why do you think the Kennedy administration had . . . had been . . . well, I think you referred on a number of occasions that . . . that they were dragging their feet . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . on . . . on civil rights. Why . . . why was that? It seems to me that was one of the big disappointments. COOPER: Well, they had these things . . . you have to remember at the beginning of his administration now, they had 128 this little depression. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: That's one reason. Second, and probably more . . . more . . . more a problem for them, was the Bay of Pigs. You remember? And . . . and Cuba, with the advance . . . with the belief--and I think it's correct--that . . . that the Russians had placed missiles, you know, in Cuba, and ships were . . . Russian ships were advancing toward Cuba and believed to have more missiles on them. [Andrei] Gromyko had lied to the U.N. [United Nations] and said there were no missiles there. I heard him in the U.N. just four or five months ago. I wouldn't believe anything he said because it . . . it's nothing. They . 129 . . they will lie if it's . . . they believe it's necessary. I don't mean they're liars about everything, but if it's . . . if . . . it's part of their system to protect it and advance it. And, of course, the Kennedys were in negotiations with the Russians, you know. I don't . . . I . . . they were in communication with them, and I . . . it seems that I'm bringing myself into this a lot, but you're interviewing me so I have to tell you. I may have told you before. This was in 1962 and Senator Morton was having a very tough, hot race against Mayor Wil-. . . former Mayor Wilson Wyatt of Louisville, who is a very high class man [and] a very fine man, of course; both of them were. They were . . . families were friends, I think, in a way, except different parties. But I was up in the mountains speaking and Morton was someplace else, and we got word to report at once to several places to be briefed upon this Russian missile problem. One was Atlanta, the other I . . . was Washington. I decided I'd go to Washington; after all, that was center of things. And Thruston went to Atlanta because he was down in the South someplace, and I was close to Ashland, but I was going anyway. I first went to the State Department. They told you to report there and we had a briefing which I . . . I didn't . . . anyway, I didn't . . . I didn't [chuckling] learn anymore than if I hadn't . . . BILL COOPER: Didn't tell you much, huh? COOPER: . . . if I hadn't gone. I'd already read about it in the newspapers, so I said, "Well, I'll just go over to the White House," and I went over there and I . . . I went down in . . . the wing . . . west wing and I . . . I . . . I saw . . . oh, I saw one of Kennedy's chief advisors that . . . he was . . . you could tell he was tired as could be and . . . and I didn't know whether he'd . . . how much he wanted to tell me anyway. And President Kennedy heard I was in the White House. He sent for me and I went up in the . . . I went up [and] he was in his living quarters in the sitting room, and he was sitting there and he was calm, and he told me that these ships had . . . had been advancing, you know, toward the United States, but we had our . . . he had his preparations, you know, with our planes. They'd [the ships] been told to turn around, and if they didn't turn around at a certain point, they [planes] were going to blow them up. And he said, "I don't know what will happen. I don't know whether this . . . this will mean a nuclear war or not, but I don't think so. I think they're going to turn around," and they did turn around. But that was kind of a historic . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . moment. And, of course, they promised that . . . we never did . . . were able to make an investigation to find out, but I assume they did take them out. Of course, lately there's more talk about they may be . . . well, we've got different weapons today anyway, submarines with missiles can come in close. But that was a great . . . that helped him tremendously, you know. He backed the Russians down. And it . . . it's reported that Gromyko said that . . . and other Russians, that--[Nikita] Khrushchev too, when he was still alive--that this would never happen again. The United States would never back the Russians down again. Now, whether that's true or not, I don't know, but it was quite a great victory for him. BILL COOPER: Yeah. It was quite a comeback from the . . . COOPER: Bay of Pigs. BILL COOPER: . . . from the Bay of Pigs . . . COOPER: Nobody knows what happened about that. You could . . . while I wasn't on the Foreign Relations Committee, I could go in and read the record. They had hearings on it. Part of the plan was . . . I . . . I don't think it could ever succeeded anyway because they didn't have enough men . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . and . . . and . . . and . . . and evidently [Fidel] Castro was better prepared than . . . than our intelligence knew, and evidently had more loyal supporters than we thought. But that the invaders were to be supported by air and they were not. And nobody ever did . . . could find out who gave the order [chuckling] to withdraw the air support. BILL COOPER: Oh, is that right? COOPER: Yeah. I read the whole record. There wasn't a thing . . . you couldn't find out in it. BILL COOPER: Hmm. Well, did . . . now, did the Senate have any . . . any prior knowledge that . . . that this invasion was going to be launched? COOPER: I think it was known. I . . . I tell you the truth, you know, I don't know whether it was Eisenhower's consent or not, whether he'd ever allowed it because, you know, in his record, the only time he ever allowed our troops to be . . . enter any foreign country was the time they went into Lebanon, which was kind of useless, I think. But they had been training, you know. BILL COOPER: Yeah. The C.I.A. [Central Intelligence Agency] was training them . . . COOPER: Was training . . . BILL COOPER: . . . in Guatemala. COOPER: . . . Guatemala. They were training the Cubans and . . . and other . . . others who would like to go on these adventures anyway. I don't know how many there were or what, but it was certainly a bungled affair. You asked about another . . . we were talking about several things which probably prevented Kennedy's attention . . . President Kennedy's attention to civil rights immediately, and I . . . I've named several, you know, the Bay of Pigs, the Russians placing of missiles on Cuba, the little depression. Oh! I think too, you know, they had . . . they had claimed during the campaign that . . . that we were very far behind the Russians in . . . in missile strength, weaponry, strategic weapons, ones that could reach from one country to another. And there was a good deal of interest in . . . in . . . in technology and speeding up technology, and they brought a great number of scientists to . . . to Washington and put them to work over in the Defense Department. Bills were passed on that too and, actually, there wasn't such a gap. BILL COOPER: They finally admitted that, didn't they? COOPER: Yeah. [laughter--Bill Cooper] In 1961, I was coming to Kentucky, and I'd always make a few speeches. I don't think I ever . . . according to all the papers written about me, I can't say they're very good speeches; they all said that I'm such a poor speaker. [laughter] But anyway, they listened. They were quiet when I was speaking. That's the same way in the Senate. They said that the . . . I was hard . . . I wasn't very much of a speaker, but I . . . that's that's one thing; they were . . . they were quiet when I spoke, I can say that. But I knew people might ask me about this, and I went over to see [Robert] McNamara, who was then secretary of defense, and I told him, I said, "I'm going to Kentucky and we've had all this talk about we're . . . we're behind in . . . in our strength, in danger, and I . . . I'll be . . . I may be asked about it, I don't know. And I . . . I'd like to know." Well, I'll [never] forget. He opened up a little book [that] looked like one of these old-fashioned grocery account books, you know, [laughter--Bill Cooper] about six inches wide and just opened it, you know. And he showed me a list of all the nuclear weapons we had, and as far as they knew and believed that the Russians had, and we were superior. BILL COOPER: But did . . . didn't the . . . didn't he get in in a little trouble with the administration for . . . for acknowledging that there wasn't a missile gap, and then eventually the Kennedy administration admitted it too, though, didn't they? COOPER: Yeah. I don't think they liked it. [chuckle-- Bill Cooper] I don't know that Kennedy . . . in . . . in the campaign . . . today, now . . . of course, it's so much more complicated today, but to try to fig-. . . balance out or figure out who is strongest is a very difficult task. And it . wasn't . . . it wouldn't be as difficult then because you didn't have as many weapons. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: But . . . oh, I . . . I have no doubt, though, that it . . . it was part of the campaign to show . . . to show that we had . . . we had become weak under the administration of President Eisenhower, although there wasn't anything in his record to show it. Nobody bothered us during his administration. BILL COOPER: There are a couple of other things on the . . . the Bay of Pigs. It . . . it always struck me as being strange that if . . . if we thought Castro was enough of a threat to warrant an invasion, how in the world did we think we could be successful with fifteen hundred men? If . . . if we thought he was strong enough to be a threat to us, how did we think we could whip him with fifteen hundred men? I . . . I've . . . I've never understood that. COOPER: Well, I don't either, and some people had gone to Cuba and gone openly, and once in a while you'd hear some of them say, you know, that he had . . . he was so unpopular over there and the people would turn against him and all that and, of course, some people may have believed that, but the intelligence should not have believed that. So our intelligence was very, very poor and, of course, if anyone is going to . . . to make an attack such as that, which really meant you were going to try to . . . to . . . it was intended to overthrow Castro, to recover Cuba for his opponents and . . . and with our . . . certainly with our approval and I imagine with our support [such as] weapons and so forth, economic [aid]. To . . . to start out, as you say, with a group of that size and, as it turned out, with no air support, it . . . in retrospect, it was a terrible mistake. Castro today, although these communist countries . . . a lot of them, of course, have never seen Cuba. A lot of them have, though. Castro goes to these communist conventions . . . world communist conventions, [and] he's one of the great speakers there now. They say he gets as much applause as [Leonid] Brezhnev nearly . . . BILL COOPER: Hmm. COOPER: . . . or more at times. They consider him as a man who's really won a revolution against the capitalists, and that [the Bay of Pigs] was a great error. I think he . . . without a question, he was a communist always and for a while, you know, he was rather moderate. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: But he was feeling his way, but that was a terrible error. BILL COOPER: Now, about a week . . . about a week after the invasion, you said that you would support military intervention . . . COOPER: Umhmm. BILL COOPER: . . . if the administration decided the Castro government was a threat to our survival. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: Did you ever think that the Castro government was a threat to our survival? Now, I'm talking about the period prior to the . . . the missiles being put in there by . . . by Russia. I'm talking about 1961 now. Did . . . did you ever feel that there was any . . . COOPER: I . . . at that point . . . BILL COOPER: . . . real reason for military . . . COOPER: . . . at that point, he . . . I . . . I didn't . . . I didn't . . . I felt they could . . . if they . . . if they used the missiles, without question, they would damage this country greatly, but I felt that our strength was so overwhelming . . . if you will recall, President . . . with our air strength and so close, that we . . . that we would've destroyed them. That . . . that was my feeling at the time. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. And . . . and you certainly would not have been in favor of our intervening unilaterally . . . COOPER: No. BILL COOPER: . . . without . . . COOPER: No. BILL COOPER: . . . consultation with other Latin American countries. COOPER: That's right. And all the . . . BILL COOPER: Now . . . COOPER: . . . Cuba . . . Cuba's been a problem, you see, all through Latin America. They . . . all throughout the years, up until now, at least, they have supported us in our position, yet there's a common ethnic bond between these Spanish-speaking people which you just have to know . . . to know exists. For example, I . . . in the positions that they are taking now, they're changing somewhat. On . . . on the Falkland Islands, in the times I was in the U.N., while at the beginning they al-. . . with one or two exceptions, they always stood by them, but they're very close together. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: And they come . . . they . . . their settlement of South America was accomplished in such a different way than ours, you know. Ours, we think, came with the idea of establishing some kind of equality and justice. They established practically in Latin America, even though they later gained their independence from Spain, the same kind of order they had in Spain of a landed gentry with their big plantations and . . . and the peasants and the Indians, who they . . . who never had any opportunity. [End of Tape #2, Side #1] [Begin Tape #2, Side #2] BILL COOPER: In May of 1961, I guess about a month or so after the Bay of Pigs, . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . the Senate debated a proposal that Castro had made, whereby he suggested that he would exchange the prisoners . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . that had been taken, some twelve hundred of them, for . . . COOPER: Umhmm. BILL COOPER: . . . tractors and heavy equipment. Do you recall your position on that proposed deal? Wasn't it a kind of . . . of blackmail . . . COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . in a sense? COOPER: I don't recall precisely, but looking back--and that's the way . . . only way I can do it, and judging what my view point would be as I think it has always been--I would have considered it a very cheap form of blackmail. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. But on the other hand, you would have been concerned about the twelve hundred who were prisoners. COOPER: That's right. BILL COOPER: Now, the . . . the Kennedy administration proposed to try to . . . to go at this by allowing a . . . a committee of . . . of private individuals . . . COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . negotiate the deal, and you objected to that. Do you remember . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . your objection to that? COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: I think your . . . your position was that those prisoners were there because someone in the administration had authorized the invasion. COOPER: That's right. BILL COOPER: And therefore, it was the responsibility of the government . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . who had put them there COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . to get them out . . . COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . rather than . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . than private individuals. And, of course, allowing . . . I . . . I don't recall whether the committee was allowed to go ahead and negotiate or not, but it seems to me if so, that would have been a violation of . . . of, really, our principle that . . . that private individuals don't conduct foreign policy, and that's what they would have been doing, in a sense. COOPER: Well, I think if they'd actually been appointed by the government . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . they . . . they really would have been in a proper position. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: If they'd been appointed by the United States government to do it, then that would have given them the authority, just as you'd appoint . . . at times, you know, the president appoints special individuals to go . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. Yeah. COOPER: . . . and consult with other countries and at . . . that one . . . that question you raised with me is one which is very difficult for me to recall and to remember exactly what did happen. BILL COOPER: I . . . I . . . COOPER: I . . . I . . . BILL COOPER: . . . I think the . . . I think this was not a committee appointed by the administration, though. I think it was a . . . a . . . COOPER: Private. BILL COOPER: . . . committee that was privately formed . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . but it did have the unofficial . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . approval . . . COOPER: Approval. BILL COOPER: . . . of the Kennedy administration. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: No official . . . COOPER: Yes. Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . commission or anything. COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: And I think that's the point that you objected to. COOPER: I don't think Castro would have recognized that kind of arrangement anyway. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: I think . . . I guess my opinion would be that he wanted to deal directly with the United States . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . as an equal. BILL COOPER: That was part of his . . . COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . his victory. COOPER: Yeah, part of his victory. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: That was a terrible mistake, the whole business, from beginning to end and . . . BILL COOPER: In . . . in a way, I . . . I suppose the-- although this is kind an odd way of looking at it, perhaps--but in a way, as far as the reputation of the Kennedy administration, they may have been fortunate that the Russians, a year later, did put missiles in Cuba. COOPER: Yes. Yes. BILL COOPER: Because it gave them a . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . an excellent opportunity COOPER: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . to . . . to recover from this . . . COOPER: Yeah. BILL COOPER: . . . fiasco. COOPER: Yeah, there isn't any question that . . . that . . . that President Kennedy showed his metal and he told Khrushchev what would happen if those boats kept on their way to Cuba or toward the United States . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . [that] they'd be destroyed. And they turned back, and Khrushchev had to back down. And also, it had . . . I would assume, too, that it didn't help Castro that his great friends just had to back down. BILL COOPER: Right. COOPER: But it did help Kennedy, . . . BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: . . . without question. BILL COOPER: Yeah. And then that . . . that also freed him to . . . to concentrate a bit more on domestic . . . COOPER: Yes. BILL COOPER: . . . issues, . . . COOPER: That's right. BILL COOPER: . . . I suspect. COOPER: Curious enough, in the last days of . . . of his life, maybe the last year . . . oh, I think he got the idea-- and I cannot remember the exact causes of it--that he was losing strength about . . . for re-nomination, you know, and this, again, is a personal thing. He invited me one day down to lunch--this is . . . was in nineteen hundred and forty . . . 196-. . . you know, the year he died . . . BILL COOPER: `-3. COOPER: What? BILL COOPER: `63. COOPER: . . . `63--and his guest was an African, the president of Togo. He was about the age of President Kennedy, maybe a year . . . two or three years younger. Having been a French colony, he spoke French and Kennedy spoke French, so at . . . at the lunch--I think there were about eight or ten there--they'd speak . . . they'd joke with each other now and then in French. But on the way out . . . of course I thanked him for inviting me, and he said . . . he said, "Will you wait just a moment?" And I said, "Of course." And we walked out on the front portico of the White House, the one looking toward . . . the front, you know, . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . and he said to me, he said, "Things are . . . may . . . are not quite as good for me as . . . as they might be, don't you think?" or something like that. [He] said that and I said, "What do you mean?" "Well," he said, "I . . . I . . . it seems like I get some criticism . . . more criticism in the Congress and . . . and . . . and my positions. I don't know what . . .," you know. Well, of course, here I was a Republican and . . . but I hadn't noticed anything. Everybody . . . every president gets his criticism, you know? BILL COOPER: Sure. COOPER: And [chuckling] I said, "Well, I haven't noticed any change." I said, "You're criticized up there quite a bit [laughter--Bill Cooper] and I have . . . I've criticized you [laughing] myself in several speeches," and . . . but I said, "You've been in politics." And I said, "What in the world are you worrying about that now for?" I said, "You know what you want to do or what your plans are and what your program is. And whatever it is, why don't you just go ahead and carry it out, do what you know . . . you think you ought to do and quit worrying about a thing like that." I said, "You . . . you've been in politics too long, and you love politics," which he did. Well, he kind of laughed and . . . but it was rather curious. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: Another curious thing which hasn't got anything to do with this, but that Togo . . . that . . . that president of Togo was assassinated about a month later. He was fleeing from his own residence to gain asylum in the U.S. embassy in whatever the capital of Togo is, and he was killed on the doorstep trying to get in the door. BILL COOPER: Hmm. COOPER: Same year . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . a few months later, poor President Kennedy was killed. It's just an unusual little coincidence . . . BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: . . . but I couldn't help but think of it. BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: I remember often after that--I forget what month that was--one of the last things that I remember about him as far is Kentucky is concerned, and this is due to Lorraine and Jacqueline [chuckling], Berea College--I don't know whether they still have it or not--but they had what they called the folk dancers then. BILL COOPER: Oh, yeah. COOPER: Huh? BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: And they wanted to perform for him on the White House grounds, and he agreed to it and they went there. I don't know how long it was before he . . . he . . . before he was killed. It wasn't too long before, and I didn't go down there that day, my wife did, but I don't recall then that I talked to him very much after that, if at all. I . . . I . . . I can't recall anything. I . . . I have recalled a few things that just occurred, just happened, like being there at the time of . . . when the Russian warships were coming toward Cuba. I recall that. Of course, I recall him, too, the time he talked to me about West Virginia. [chuckle] BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: That was political. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: And also, when he sent me to Russia. And I think I've told you the rather amusing thing when he . . . he came down to Kentucky to speak for Wilson Wyatt. BILL COOPER: I don't recall that. COOPER: Huh? BILL COOPER: I . . . that was in `62. COOPER: [In] `62, and that couldn't have been too long before he was killed, you know. Well, when he got to the airport there he had a big crowd to meet him and he said, among other things, of course, he was for Wyatt, that . . . naturally. He said, "You have one great senator in Washington," [chuckling] "John Sherman Cooper." He said, "Why not send another one up to help him, Wilson Wyatt." Well, Louie Nunn was the campaign manager [for Cooper] and, of course, it was on the radio, you know. And Louie called my wife up--she was staying there in Lexington then; we got a kind of a headquarters there [and] we stayed there during the campaign because it was more central--he called her up and he said, "Did you hear about what President Kennedy said out at the airport?" And she said, "Yes," and she said he [Nunn] said, "You know him, don't you?" She said, "Yes." He said, "You know he's going to speak tonight. He might say the same thing." He said, "Do you think you could call him up and tell him not to?" [laughter] It sounded funny, and she said, "Well, Louie, don't you think John's a good senator?" [laughter--Bill Cooper] Oh, I ought not to tell that, but that . . . that . . . because Thruston [Morton] was . . . well, Thruston won and won pretty easily, you know? BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: He wasn't expected to win that big. BILL COOPER: Yeah. COOPER: He won by forty-two thousand votes. BILL COOPER: Yeah, he was a good campaigner. COOPER: Yeah, b-. . . BILL COOPER: He wasn't supposed to beat [Earle] Clements, either. COOPER: What? BILL COOPER: He . . . COOPER: No! BILL COOPER: . . . wasn't supposed to beat Clements, either. COOPER: I'll tell you what about him. When he . . . when he first started out campaigning, that was the . . . that year we ran together in . . . in `40 . . . in . . . BILL COOPER: `56. COOPER: . . . `56. He hadn't been used to going through the country. It was kind of difficult on him at first, you know? BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: And so he wanted me to go with him a lot and I did, and . . . and he was a different type, you know. And out in the country in small places, of course, they didn't know [him]. And I said, "Don't worry about that. They . . . you don't talk a long time to people anyway unless they want to keep talking to you. You'll embarrass them and they'll . . ." I said, "I . . . the best thing to do is just talk to them and tell them you want them to help you and . . . and laugh and go along." BILL COOPER: Umhmm. COOPER: And . . . but the next time when he ran again, he'd acquired a reputation, you know, of being a very able man, honorable man, high class and . . . and that he'd built . . . he'd really gained and . . . and he . . . they didn't care then. They respected him. BILL COOPER: Right. COOPER: I . . . I . . . well, I'll talk to you when it's all over. I'll . . . I'm going to try to get in touch with his . . . I call his wife every now and then and ask her about him. He can't talk. He's very bad, you know. BILL COOPER: Uh-huh. COOPER: Hmm?

[End of interview]